Wednesday 16 March 2005

The Acid2 Challenge

IN A PUBLIC EFFORT to encourage Microsoft to add as much CSS 2 support as possible as its developers embark on IE7, Håkon Wium Lie (CTO of Opera Software and the father of CSS) and the Web Standards Project have begun the development of a test suite, known as “Acid2.”

The suite, and challenge to Microsoft, has been announced today in an article written by Lie for C|NET, The Acid2 Challenge to Microsoft.

Filed under:   general
Posted by:   Molly | 10:06 | Comments (25)

Comments (25)

  1. i don’t understand how this acid challenge is going to help anything…
    I don’t think microsoft has to step up to any “challenges” to prove themselves.

    I think all the barking and complaining developers have been doing should be good enough.

  2. I think its great that Håkon and the WaSP are doing something.

  3. This is excellent news, good for browser users, good for browsers, and good for competition between browsers. I’m heartened to see that WaSP is still leading the way.

  4. I like the idea behind this, but I don’t think it’s going to really change anything. I don’t see Microsoft as an entity capable of feeling shame, so I don’t see how they can be shamed into fixing their browser, even if it means they could then tout it as being New&Improved! I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t think it’ll change a thing.

  5. I laud the effort… especially since Microsoft did take the initiative to make IE6 work with the original Acid test. Of course, I think the true means of achieving what is needed in IE is to get all of the major corporations that Microsoft seems to listen to more than the standard user/developer and get them to start demanding true web standards support. When you finally start hitting the pocketbook, then they’ll listen.

  6. The best thing for the ‘CSS’ community is that Håkon Wium Lie learns that his opinion/ranting isn’t worth all that much.

    He’s just pissed-off that FireFox stole whatever thunder the Opera browser may have had which wasn’t much.

    His 15 minutes of fame are over.

  7. Having a go at Hakon (and disregarding what he says) simply because he’s from Opera and not the Mozilla Foundation isn’t going to do anyone any good; it’s just petty.

  8. I think it’s a great idea.

    Jim, its worth noting that the reason IE6 and other browsers support Web Standards to the degree that they do, is largely down to the WaSP and all the complaining and cajoling they have done. If no body speaks up then how are they supposed to know?

    Me thinks FireFox hath made Microsoft prick up its ears; could it be argued that this early release of IE7 is actually a ‘damage limitation’ strategy to counterattack FireFox’s popularity?

    Does anybody know if this is a complete re-write or just a rehash of its problematic code?

  9. > The best thing for the ‘CSS’ community is that Håkon Wium Lie learns > that his opinion/ranting isn’t worth all that much.

    > He’s just pissed-off that FireFox stole whatever thunder the Opera
    > browser may have had which wasn’t much.

    I don’t think so. And you could show at least a bit of respect to the man who actually *invented* CSS.

  10. I think it’s odd that the CTO of Opera, the browser company that quite likely makes the 2nd worst browser, is telling Microsoft to improve.

    Opera itself has a long way to go and the executives of that company need to concentrate on that.

  11. Adam Michela: Oh puhleeze, when was the last time you used Opera?

  12. Everytime this week I’ve built something and had to spend a half hour in Opera hacking it to work.

    Most specifically, the absence of XMLHttpRequest and the negative text indent bug are daily frustrations.

    What’s worse? They `fixed` these bugs long ago for 7.6. Then they decided 7.6 should be 8.0. Pushing back release even further. Meanwhile, the web suffers.

  13. Hey there folks – please don’t confuse Opera with Hakon.

    Hakon isn’t involved with Acid2 as a representative of Opera. He’s involved in this because:

    1). WaSP can get the test suite built and approved faster than any W3C committee would (not a criticism, just a fact)

    2). Hakon, as the father of CSS, knows more about the technology and its implementation than possibly anyone.

    3). Opera will be held to the same test suite standard btw. The push isn’t “against” Microsoft per se, but it is aimed at the browser with the worst implementation of CSS at this time. The suite is for every browser manufacturer.

    Hope this clarifies!

  14. Adam Michela, your poorly founded attacks against Opera are an embarrassment to whichever browser vendor you are a supporter of. You probably don’t realize this, but XMLHttpRequest is non-standard, and Opera 8 actually has DOM3 Load and Save, which is the proper way to do this.

    Just because Opera doesn’t rush out a version with XMLHttpRequest doesn’t mean that it’s a crap browser.

    You are doing Mozilla a disservice by flaming other browsers, especially when your attacks are based on nothing but lies and nonsense.

    On behalf of the Mozilla community, I am utterly embarrassed to have someone like you dragging its name through the dirt by resorting to petty attacks against others. You are the reason why people are turning away from the Mozilla community. Fanboyism never did make the community look good.

    *shakes head*

  15. Molly,

    I saw similar comments from you on Scoble’s site earlier and I respect the POV.

    You’re right, Hakon is probably the end-all-be-all to produce a CSS test. And it probably has nothing to do with Opera. However, his article on CNET certainly doesn’t come across that way.

    He is attacking Microsoft and IE. Which is fine. Except, I just don’t feel the makers of Opera have that right.

    But you’re right. Opera has no choice but to conform to this test suite. However, I’m just hoping they don’t create something that highlights IE’s deficiencies while ignoring Opera’s.


    Don’t be so dramatic.

    Why is it OK for everyone and their mother to flame IE but nothing can be said about Opera?

    How am I doing Mozilla a disservice with such behavior when Mozilla representatives themselves partake?

    Did I even mention Mozilla?

    Lies and nonsense? I made the case that Opera’s well known and yet to be resolved bugs and lack of widely accepted features are just as harmful to the web as IE’s.

    I don’t care what Opera 8 can do because, like IE7, it is not out yet.

    It sounds to me like your the “fanboy”. If you want to attack someone at least have the decency to come out of anonymity.

  16. I don’t personally think it’s incorrect to hold Opera to the same fire. That’s the point of the test suite. The reason WaSP is involved has much to do with making sure that the suite is true to CSS 2 implementation – not just based on flaws in IE.

    If you think about it folks, Hakon has actually done something a bit crazy, but not in the way that it looks. By challenging IE, he HAS to challenge Opera, because the test suite will prove flaws in Opera just as it will in IE.

    Let’s not let this become an attack on each other, please. Having different opinions and pointing out problems in all browsers ultimately is good for all.

    I can’t speak for anyone but myself but this is not, at least for me, an “I love Opera but Microsoft sucks” campaign. I don’t use either browser unless I have to, quite frankly, although if given the choice of the two, I’d still have to say I’d go with Opera.

    Keep the conversation going folks, but let’s please do keep it civil.

  17. Agreed.

    Except, if I had to choose between the two… I’d just rip my eyes out and call it a day. 🙂

  18. Ironic how so many people pick and choose when and when not to promote the so-called virtues of diversity.

  19. Some things in life are important.

    The browser that one chooses to use, for whatever reasons, would not fall into the category of ‘important’ or even relevant much less important.

    Who cares?

  20. Kudos to WaSP on Acid2, and can’t wait to see how it renders in various browsers (not just IE7). My first thought, though, was “I wonder what Microsoft will have to say about this, if anything?” Well, I have my answer:,1995,1776935,00.asp.

    From the article: “…Microsoft considers CSS2 to be a “flawed” standard…”

  21. Remember when acid was just the drug we took before we went to “Rocky Horror” ah life was simpler back then….
    “Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
    Where have you been?
    It’s alright we know where you’ve been.
    You’ve been in the pipeline, filling in time, “pink floyd”

    kind of prophet for a bunch of stoners

  22. Pingback: Urls Sinistras » Blog Archive » Acid2

Upcoming Travels